[UEB] Typeforms extending across same text elements

Jen Goulden jgoulden at crawfordtech.com
Thu Jan 28 09:53:50 EST 2021


Indeed, it is so easy to get into a bit of a whirlpool with these things, but I agree that context is not supposed to be a primary determining factor in UEB.

Thanks for bringing this question to the list, Jen! This is exactly why we set it up.
Jen


JEN GOULDEN, EDP
Accessibility Compliance Specialist
Past President, Braille Literacy Canada
Treasurer, International Council on English Braille
343-804-0333 (Office)
613-552-4191 (Cell)
jgoulden at crawfordtech.com<mailto:jgoulden at crawfordtech.com>
Crawford Technologies Inc.
60 St. Clair Ave. East, Suite 1002
Toronto, ON, Canada, M4T 1N5
www.crawfordtech.com<http://www.crawfordtech.com/>
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From: UEB <ueb-bounces at lists.blc-lbc.ca> On Behalf Of Bruce Toews via UEB
Sent: January 27, 2021 11:17 PM
To: 'Unified English Braille (UEB) Discussion Listserv' <ueb at lists.blc-lbc.ca>
Cc: Bruce Toews <bruce at brucetoews.com>
Subject: Re: [UEB] Typeforms extending across same text elements

Now it's my turn for an "I agree". This is the kind of scenario that makes proofreaders almost consider drinking Pepsi. But I think your assessment here is exactly correct.

Bruce


--
Bruce Toews
Certified Braille Proofreader
[JAWS Certified, 2020]<http://www.freedomscientific.com/Certification>
For the very best in radio comedy and drama, please visit http://www.mushroomfm.com/escape

From: UEB <ueb-bounces at lists.blc-lbc.ca> On Behalf Of Donald Winiecki via UEB
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 10:08 PM
To: Unified English Braille (UEB) Discussion Listserv <ueb at lists.blc-lbc.ca>
Cc: Donald Winiecki <dwiniecki at handid.org>
Subject: Re: [UEB] Typeforms extending across same text elements

I'm always happy to be corrected, so here goes!

Before we get started, let's include the wording of RUEB 9.9.1 as a reference:

When transcribing a typeform passage which extends over more than
one text element (e.g. a series of consecutive paragraphs), each text
element is preceded by the typeform passage indicator and the
typeform is terminated only at the point where the typeform changes.

Note that it specifies "typeform passage," so we have to have a continuous set of more than three symbols-sequences. It also uses the term "text elements" and then parenthetically gives an example of consecutive paragraphs, so "consecutive paragraphs" is just one example of what could constitute "text elements."

So...

Q1: If a paragraph ended with an italic passage, and the next paragraph started with only one or two italic words (and then continued with non-italic text), would rule 9.9.1 apply? Or would the first paragraph use an italic passage indicator and terminator and the one or two words in the second paragraph use italic word indicators?

Provisional response: If the second paragraph was part of the same passage (a contiguous set of words marked by the same typeform), then it would seem that we would not terminate the passage at the end of the preceding paragraph, then provide the typeform passage indicator at the start of the next paragraph and terminate it when the typeform ends.

Q2: If three or four paragraphs in a row were all in italics, but each paragraph only had one or two words, would rule 9.9.1 apply? Or would each paragraph use italic word indicators?

Provisional response: Since we're interested in "text elements" and not paragraphs per se, it doesn't matter how long are the "text elements" so long as they collectively constitute a passage (three or more symbols sets). It would appear that we start each "text element" with the typeform passage indicator and use a typeform passage terminator only at the end of the contiguous "text elements" marked by that typeform.

Q3. In the example of italics being used to represent thoughts: if the first paragraph ended with an italic passage representing thoughts of one person and the next paragraph began with an italic passage representing thoughts of a different person, would rule 9.9.1 apply? Or does context like this matter?

Provisional response: Nothing in RUEB 9.9.1 indicates we should be concerned with context or logic of the text. With this in mind, it seems that we would pay strict attention to the rule -- if there is a continuous set of "text elements" set in a particular typeform, and that continuous set of "text elements" makes up a passage (three or more symbols sets) then we follow the rule as stated. That is, we include typeform passage indicators at the start of each "text element," and insert the typeform terminator only when the typeform ends, rather than inserting the typeform terminator at the end of each "text element."

For what it's worth, in transcription the goal is to represent the literal representation of printed matter as closely as we can in braille. The vast majority of the time, our goal in transcription is not to represent what we think is the logic or context of the text. It has been my observation that when we allow ourselves to consider the latter, it is very easy to get confused.

Best,


_don [Image removed by sender. ]

On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 8:25 PM Jennifer Jesso via UEB <ueb at lists.blc-lbc.ca<mailto:ueb at lists.blc-lbc.ca>> wrote:
Hi all,

Thanks so much for the clarification. The reasoning makes perfect sense. The wording of 9.9.1 didn't cause my confusion. It was actually rereading the rule that caused me to think I might be confused, but I was not quite sure, hence my post here.

Now I have a bunch of follow-up questions to make sure I'm understanding rule 9.9.1 fully...and I'm feeling a bit like I've reverted back to "student" here...

1. If a paragraph ended with an italic passage, and the next paragraph started with only one or two italic words (and then continued with non-italic text)t, would rule 9.9.1 apply? Or would the first paragraph use an italic passage indicator and terminator and the one or two words in the second paragraph use italic word indicators?

2. If three or four paragraphs in a row were all in italics, but each paragraph only had one or two words, would rule 9.9.1 apply? Or would each paragraph use italic word indicators?

3. In the example of italics being used to represent thoughts: if the first paragraph ended with an italic passage representing thoughts of one person and the next paragraph began with an italic passage representing thoughts of a different person, would rule 9.9.1 apply? Or does context like this matter?

Sorry for so many questions! I just want to make sure my understanding of when to apply rule 9.9.1 is complete. :)

Jen

On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 7:42 AM Donald Winiecki via UEB <ueb at lists.blc-lbc.ca<mailto:ueb at lists.blc-lbc.ca>> wrote:
Since Phyllis (THE authority on UEB) has already affirmed the logic expressed through this thread I'm not sure if my "I agree" adds anything. That said, in my defense I'll add the following:

The wording of RUEB 9.9.1 may not be exactly explicit in support of what Phyllis provides -- and I suppose that allowed for this thread to occur -- but for me RUEB 9.9.1 is clear in indicating that typeforms do not have to apply to entire text elements for the rule to apply.

Sometimes I puzzle over the wording of rules in the RUEB, but not so in the case of 9.9.1.

Best,


_don [Image removed by sender. ]

[Image removed by sender. The logo is a gray circle with text inside it.  The first line of text reads "Be the change"  The second line of text reads "Human Rights CERTIFIED."  Below the second line of text is the logo for the Wassmuth Center for Human Rights.]


On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 7:50 AM Phyllis Landon via UEB <ueb at lists.blc-lbc.ca<mailto:ueb at lists.blc-lbc.ca>> wrote:
I agree.  The idea behind this rule is to ensure that each paragraph (or other text element) begins with the typeform indicator so the reader knows it is in a special typeform even if they don’t start reading from the beginning.  You only need to terminate it at the end where it changes back to the regular typeform and not after each paragraph.  So you would apply this principle even if it’s only one and a half paragraphs.

Phyllis

Phyllis Landon
Member ICEB Code Maintenance Committee



From: UEB <ueb-bounces at lists.blc-lbc.ca<mailto:ueb-bounces at lists.blc-lbc.ca>> On Behalf Of Jen Goulden via UEB
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 9:15 AM
To: Unified English Braille (UEB) Discussion Listserv <ueb at lists.blc-lbc.ca<mailto:ueb at lists.blc-lbc.ca>>
Cc: Jen Goulden <jgoulden at crawfordtech.com<mailto:jgoulden at crawfordtech.com>>
Subject: Re: [UEB] Typeforms extending across same text elements

Hi all,

I would tend to agree with Bruce. As long as the end of the first paragraph and the beginning of the second are in the same typeform I think I’d follow this principle.

Here’s hoping Bruce and Caroline aren’t deported just so Justin can keep the cute budgies for himself! 😊
Jen

JEN GOULDEN, EDP
Accessibility Compliance Specialist
Past President, Braille Literacy Canada
Treasurer, International Council on English Braille
343-804-0333 (Office)
613-552-4191 (Cell)
jgoulden at crawfordtech.com<mailto:jgoulden at crawfordtech.com>
Crawford Technologies Inc.
60 St. Clair Ave. East, Suite 1002
Toronto, ON, Canada, M4T 1N5
www.crawfordtech.com<http://www.crawfordtech.com/>
This e-mail may be privileged and/or confidential, and the sender does not waive any related rights and obligations. Any distribution, use or copying of this e-mail or the information it contains by other than an intended recipient is unauthorized. If you received this e-mail in error, please advise me (by return e-mail or otherwise) immediately.

Please consider our environment before printing this email.

Ce courrier électronique est confidentiel et protégé. L'expéditeur ne renonce pas aux droits et obligations qui s'y rapportent. Toute diffusion, utilisation ou copie de ce message ou des renseignements qu'il contient par une personne autre que le (les) destinataire(s) désigné(s) est interdite. Si vous recevez ce courrier électronique par erreur, veuillez m'en aviser immédiatement, par retour de courrier électronique ou par un autre moyen.

Devez-vous imprimer ce courriel? Pensons environnement.

From: UEB <ueb-bounces at lists.blc-lbc.ca<mailto:ueb-bounces at lists.blc-lbc.ca>> On Behalf Of Bruce Toews via UEB
Sent: January 27, 2021 12:38 AM
To: 'Unified English Braille (UEB) Discussion Listserv' <ueb at lists.blc-lbc.ca<mailto:ueb at lists.blc-lbc.ca>>
Cc: Bruce Toews <bruce at brucetoews.com<mailto:bruce at brucetoews.com>>
Subject: Re: [UEB] Typeforms extending across same text elements

I bet you can't say that five times quickly. My gut tells me that it would still apply even in partially-typeformed paragraphs. For example, when someone's thoughts are in italics, you might have something like, Bruce and Caroline's budgies are the cutest birds on the planet, the prime minister thought. And then he would go on and on about how their feeding and caring should be funded by the taxpayer.  Then in the next paragraph, you might see, Pity Bruce is such a jerk, he continued to himself. And then he'd go on about where he'd like me deported. In the above elaborate example, you have brief pieces outside of typeforms, but I think the multiple italicized paragraph thing would continue to apply. It's certainly done this way with quotation marks, for the most part. Just my thoughts.

Bruce


--
Bruce Toews
Certified Braille Proofreader
[JAWS Certified, 2020]<http://www.freedomscientific.com/Certification>
For the very best in radio comedy and drama, please visit http://www.mushroomfm.com/escape

From: UEB <ueb-bounces at lists.blc-lbc.ca<mailto:ueb-bounces at lists.blc-lbc.ca>> On Behalf Of Jennifer Jesso via UEB
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2021 11:13 PM
To: ueb at lists.blc-lbc.ca<mailto:ueb at lists.blc-lbc.ca>
Cc: Jennifer Jesso <jen.jesso at gmail.com<mailto:jen.jesso at gmail.com>>
Subject: [UEB] Typeforms extending across same text elements

Hi everyone,

I would like to clarify my understanding of section 9.9.1 in the Rules of UEB. This seems rather basic, but I began to think about it and have now over-thought the issue to the point of thoroughly confusing myself.

My understanding of this section is that it only applies if the consecutive paragraphs are written entirely in a particular typeform. So it would not apply if one paragraph happened to end with a typeform passage and the next paragraph happened to start with another typeform passage of the same type. Nor would it apply even if the first paragraph were entirely in a particular typeform and the next paragraph began with a typeform passage of the same type if the second paragraph continued on after the typeform passage ended. Only if both paragraphs were in the same typeform in their entirety would 9.9.1 apply.

Any confirmation that my understanding is correct, or clarification that I am indeed confused, would be appreciated.

Thanks!

Jen
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