[UEB] Typeforms extending across same text elements

Jennifer Jesso jen.jesso at gmail.com
Thu Jan 28 21:16:00 EST 2021


Thanks so much, everyone. This has been such a helpful discussion for me!
Thanks so much for tackling all my follow-up questions - it really helps me
solidify my understanding.

I'm very glad this list exists as a resource. :)

Jen

On Thu, Jan 28, 2021 at 12:40 PM Phyllis Landon via UEB <
ueb at lists.blc-lbc.ca> wrote:

> Yes, I think we’re all on the same page.  As long as the braille reader
> has the same information as the print reader on the typeforms, they can
> figure out the context for themselves.
>
>
>
> Phyllis
>
>
>
> *Phyllis Landon*
>
> *Member ICEB Code Maintenance Committee*
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* UEB <ueb-bounces at lists.blc-lbc.ca> *On Behalf Of *Bruce Toews via
> UEB
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 27, 2021 11:17 PM
> *To:* 'Unified English Braille (UEB) Discussion Listserv' <
> ueb at lists.blc-lbc.ca>
> *Cc:* Bruce Toews <bruce at brucetoews.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [UEB] Typeforms extending across same text elements
>
>
>
> Now it's my turn for an "I agree". This is the kind of scenario that makes
> proofreaders almost consider drinking Pepsi. But I think your assessment
> here is exactly correct.
>
>
>
> Bruce
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Bruce Toews
>
> Certified Braille Proofreader
>
> [image: JAWS Certified, 2020]
> <http://www.freedomscientific.com/Certification>
>
> For the very best in radio comedy and drama, please visit
> http://www.mushroomfm.com/escape
>
>
>
> *From:* UEB <ueb-bounces at lists.blc-lbc.ca> *On Behalf Of *Donald Winiecki
> via UEB
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 27, 2021 10:08 PM
> *To:* Unified English Braille (UEB) Discussion Listserv <
> ueb at lists.blc-lbc.ca>
> *Cc:* Donald Winiecki <dwiniecki at handid.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [UEB] Typeforms extending across same text elements
>
>
>
> I'm always happy to be corrected, so here goes!
>
>
>
> Before we get started, let's include the wording of RUEB 9.9.1 as a
> reference:
>
>
>
> When transcribing a typeform passage which extends over more than
> one text element (e.g. a series of consecutive paragraphs), each text
> element is preceded by the typeform passage indicator and the
> typeform is terminated only at the point where the typeform changes.
>
>
>
> Note that it specifies "typeform passage," so we have to have a continuous
> set of more than three symbols-sequences. It also uses the term "text
> elements" and then parenthetically gives an example of consecutive
> paragraphs, so "consecutive paragraphs" is just one example of what could
> constitute "text elements."
>
>
>
> So...
>
>
>
> Q1: If a paragraph ended with an italic passage, and the next paragraph
> started with only one or two italic words (and then continued with
> non-italic text), would rule 9.9.1 apply? Or would the first paragraph use
> an italic passage indicator and terminator and the one or two words in the
> second paragraph use italic word indicators?
>
>
>
> Provisional response: If the second paragraph was part of the same passage
> (a contiguous set of words marked by the same typeform), then it would seem
> that we would not terminate the passage at the end of the preceding
> paragraph, then provide the typeform passage indicator at the start of the
> next paragraph and terminate it when the typeform ends.
>
>
>
> Q2: If three or four paragraphs in a row were all in italics, but each
> paragraph only had one or two words, would rule 9.9.1 apply? Or would each
> paragraph use italic word indicators?
>
>
>
> Provisional response: Since we're interested in "text elements" and not
> paragraphs per se, it doesn't matter how long are the "text elements" so
> long as they collectively constitute a passage (three or more symbols
> sets). It would appear that we start each "text element" with the typeform
> passage indicator and use a typeform passage terminator only at the end of
> the contiguous "text elements" marked by that typeform.
>
>
>
> Q3. In the example of italics being used to represent thoughts: if the
> first paragraph ended with an italic passage representing thoughts of one
> person and the next paragraph began with an italic passage representing
> thoughts of a different person, would rule 9.9.1 apply? Or does context
> like this matter?
>
>
>
> Provisional response: Nothing in RUEB 9.9.1 indicates we should be
> concerned with context or logic of the text. With this in mind, it seems
> that we would pay strict attention to the rule -- if there is a continuous
> set of "text elements" set in a particular typeform, and that continuous
> set of "text elements" makes up a passage (three or more symbols sets) then
> we follow the rule as stated. That is, we include typeform passage
> indicators at the start of each "text element," and insert the typeform
> terminator only when the typeform ends, rather than inserting the typeform
> terminator at the end of each "text element."
>
>
>
> For what it's worth, in transcription the goal is to represent the literal
> representation of printed matter as closely as we can in braille. The vast
> majority of the time, our goal in transcription is not to represent what *we
> think* is the logic or context of the text. It has been my observation
> that when we allow ourselves to consider the latter, it is very easy to get
> confused.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
>
> _don [image: Image removed by sender. ]
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 8:25 PM Jennifer Jesso via UEB <
> ueb at lists.blc-lbc.ca> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> Thanks so much for the clarification. The reasoning makes perfect sense.
> The wording of 9.9.1 didn't cause my confusion. It was actually rereading
> the rule that caused me to think I might be confused, but I was not quite
> sure, hence my post here.
>
>
>
> Now I have a bunch of follow-up questions to make sure I'm understanding
> rule 9.9.1 fully...and I'm feeling a bit like I've reverted back to
> "student" here...
>
>
>
> 1. If a paragraph ended with an italic passage, and the next paragraph
> started with only one or two italic words (and then continued with
> non-italic text)t, would rule 9.9.1 apply? Or would the first paragraph use
> an italic passage indicator and terminator and the one or two words in the
> second paragraph use italic word indicators?
>
>
>
> 2. If three or four paragraphs in a row were all in italics, but each
> paragraph only had one or two words, would rule 9.9.1 apply? Or would each
> paragraph use italic word indicators?
>
>
>
> 3. In the example of italics being used to represent thoughts: if the
> first paragraph ended with an italic passage representing thoughts of one
> person and the next paragraph began with an italic passage representing
> thoughts of a different person, would rule 9.9.1 apply? Or does context
> like this matter?
>
>
>
> Sorry for so many questions! I just want to make sure my understanding of
> when to apply rule 9.9.1 is complete. :)
>
>
>
> Jen
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 7:42 AM Donald Winiecki via UEB <
> ueb at lists.blc-lbc.ca> wrote:
>
> Since Phyllis (THE authority on UEB) has already affirmed the logic
> expressed through this thread I'm not sure if my "I agree" adds anything.
> That said, in my defense I'll add the following:
>
>
>
> The wording of RUEB 9.9.1 may not be exactly explicit in support of what
> Phyllis provides -- and I suppose that allowed for this thread to occur --
> but for me RUEB 9.9.1 is clear in indicating that typeforms do not have to
> apply to entire text elements for the rule to apply.
>
>
>
> Sometimes I puzzle over the wording of rules in the RUEB, but not so in
> the case of 9.9.1.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
>
> _don [image: Image removed by sender. ]
>
> [image: Image removed by sender. The logo is a gray circle with text
> inside it. The first line of text reads "Be the change" The second line of
> text reads "Human Rights CERTIFIED." Below the second line of text is the
> logo for the Wassmuth Center for Human Rights.]
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 7:50 AM Phyllis Landon via UEB <
> ueb at lists.blc-lbc.ca> wrote:
>
> I agree.  The idea behind this rule is to ensure that each paragraph (or
> other text element) begins with the typeform indicator so the reader knows
> it is in a special typeform even if they don’t start reading from the
> beginning.  You only need to terminate it at the end where it changes back
> to the regular typeform and not after each paragraph.  So you would apply
> this principle even if it’s only one and a half paragraphs.
>
>
>
> Phyllis
>
>
>
> *Phyllis Landon*
>
> *Member ICEB Code Maintenance Committee*
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* UEB <ueb-bounces at lists.blc-lbc.ca> *On Behalf Of *Jen Goulden via
> UEB
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 27, 2021 9:15 AM
> *To:* Unified English Braille (UEB) Discussion Listserv <
> ueb at lists.blc-lbc.ca>
> *Cc:* Jen Goulden <jgoulden at crawfordtech.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [UEB] Typeforms extending across same text elements
>
>
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I would tend to agree with Bruce. As long as the end of the first
> paragraph and the beginning of the second are in the same typeform I think
> I’d follow this principle.
>
>
>
> Here’s hoping Bruce and Caroline aren’t deported just so Justin can keep
> the cute budgies for himself! 😊
>
> Jen
>
>
>
> *JEN GOULDEN, EDP*
>
> Accessibility Compliance Specialist
> Past President, Braille Literacy Canada
>
> Treasurer, International Council on English Braille
>
> 343-804-0333 (Office)
>
> 613-552-4191 (Cell)
>
> jgoulden at crawfordtech.com
>
> *Crawford Technologies Inc.*
> 60 St. Clair Ave. East, Suite 1002
> Toronto, ON, Canada, M4T 1N5
> www.crawfordtech.com
>
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> *From:* UEB <ueb-bounces at lists.blc-lbc.ca> *On Behalf Of *Bruce Toews via
> UEB
> *Sent:* January 27, 2021 12:38 AM
> *To:* 'Unified English Braille (UEB) Discussion Listserv' <
> ueb at lists.blc-lbc.ca>
> *Cc:* Bruce Toews <bruce at brucetoews.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [UEB] Typeforms extending across same text elements
>
>
>
> I bet you can't say that five times quickly. My gut tells me that it would
> still apply even in partially-typeformed paragraphs. For example, when
> someone's thoughts are in italics, you might have something like, Bruce and
> Caroline's budgies are the cutest birds on the planet, the prime minister
> thought. And then he would go on and on about how their feeding and caring
> should be funded by the taxpayer.  Then in the next paragraph, you might
> see, Pity Bruce is such a jerk, he continued to himself. And then he'd go
> on about where he'd like me deported. In the above elaborate example, you
> have brief pieces outside of typeforms, but I think the multiple italicized
> paragraph thing would continue to apply. It's certainly done this way with
> quotation marks, for the most part. Just my thoughts.
>
>
>
> Bruce
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Bruce Toews
>
> Certified Braille Proofreader
>
> [image: JAWS Certified, 2020]
> <http://www.freedomscientific.com/Certification>
>
> For the very best in radio comedy and drama, please visit
> http://www.mushroomfm.com/escape
>
>
>
> *From:* UEB <ueb-bounces at lists.blc-lbc.ca> *On Behalf Of *Jennifer Jesso
> via UEB
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 26, 2021 11:13 PM
> *To:* ueb at lists.blc-lbc.ca
> *Cc:* Jennifer Jesso <jen.jesso at gmail.com>
> *Subject:* [UEB] Typeforms extending across same text elements
>
>
>
> Hi everyone,
>
>
>
> I would like to clarify my understanding of section 9.9.1 in the Rules of
> UEB. This seems rather basic, but I began to think about it and have now
> over-thought the issue to the point of thoroughly confusing myself.
>
>
>
> My understanding of this section is that it only applies if the
> consecutive paragraphs are written entirely in a particular typeform. So it
> would not apply if one paragraph happened to end with a typeform passage
> and the next paragraph happened to start with another typeform passage of
> the same type. Nor would it apply even if the first paragraph were entirely
> in a particular typeform and the next paragraph began with a typeform
> passage of the same type if the second paragraph continued on after the
> typeform passage ended. Only if both paragraphs were in the same typeform
> in their entirety would 9.9.1 apply.
>
>
>
> Any confirmation that my understanding is correct, or clarification that I
> am indeed confused, would be appreciated.
>
>
>
> Thanks!
>
>
>
> Jen
>
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